Talk:David Copperfield

Missing key moments

No mention of him making the statue of liberty disappear? 14.200.219.9 (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Not pertinent, see David Copperfield (illusionist) with your comment. --Prairieplant (talk) 10:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Changed a Note to a ref in Literary significance and reception, 2nd paragraph

Rwood128 I changed the note referring to Davis 1999 to a ref, using harvb format, as his much-referenced work is in the bibliography list. Is there a page number for that? The second paragraph looks like this

Situated in the middle of Dickens's career, it represents, according to Paul Davis, a turning point in his work, the point of separation between the novels of youth and those of maturity.[157] In 1850, Dickens was 38 years old and had twenty more to live, which he filled with other masterpieces, often denser, sometimes darker, that addressed most of the political, social and personal issues he faced.

At 157 is where the ref to Davis 1999 is.

A smaller point, should he be Paul B Davis in the bibliography? World Cat lists him that way, and he is Paul B Davis emeritus professor at U of New Mexico. Small point for a big author.

I think he did a revision in 2006 with a different title, Charles Dickens : A Literary Reference to His Life and Work by Paul B. Davis, hardcover publisher by Facts on File with ISBN 9780816064076 -- things I learn in hopes of finding some of the text of his book on line, which of course I did not find. This page here from World Cat shows the table of contents for the revised version of his "encyclopedia of Dickens" and says it was published in 2007 by Facts on File as hardcover and as an e-book.. --Prairieplant (talk) 12:05, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, Prairieplant, I cannot help. My university library has this book, but we are in lockdown, with urgent library access only. I didn't add this. Rwood128 (talk) 14:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

ie or i.e. & apostrophes

A quick google suggests that there isn't a standard British usage in this case. Rwood128 (talk) 14:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Prairieplant, I checked OED online and it has i.e., as does The New Fowler's, and my copy of Chambers gives both versions. Rwood128 (talk) 14:30, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

That is good work. Does that mean we use the full stops? It is hard when British usage is not as consistent as I might like, to settle a question. - - Prairieplant (talk) 05:14, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I commented in case your edit was disputed, Prairieplant. The examples that I found seem to favour i.e., but either is obviously acceptable! Rwood128 (talk) 10:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey, Prairieplant and Rwood128. Just a friendly note: at Wikipedia we have a pretty exhaustive style guide, which standardizes usage across the project, and reduces conflict between editors whose intuitions about what is and is not correct may vary.

Wikipedia:MOS

In this case, we use e.g. and i.e.: see MOS:ABBR.

In the case of names ending in s, we—as Dickens himself did—append 's, without exception: see MOS:'S.

Regulov (talk) 08:19, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Regulov There is not one style across English language Wikipedia. There are several styles. You prefer s’s but my own search for the definitive British style on that question, that search did not find your way to be the only acceptable British style. Oddly enough, present day, 21st century, British style does not match the style Dickens used for the possessive or for titles. As I like to work on articles by British authors, I try to keep up with today’s British style. I would prefer you revert your “undo”. The style of Dickens’ for the possessive was consistent through the article, and sone weight is given to the work of prior editors.

I admit to missing some of the spellings that differ between British, American and Canadian spellings, and am pleased when natives fix the spellings. I work hard on the punctuation, as American editors too often pass by an article and change text from what is in unfamiliar British style to their own American style. An aside to you, please put a straightforward edit description on your changes. - - Prairieplant (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

National varieties of English are not germane to this dispute. It simply does not matter whether the article is written in British English or American English. Nor is it a question of my preference, or of consistency, or of the work of prior editors. There is no "definitive British style", but there is a definitive WP style, and it is outlined here: MOS:POSS. The MOS is very clear and unambiguous. At WP, we write "Dickens's". I am simply bringing the page into compliance with the house style. I know it looks unfamiliar, even unpleasant to you; I suggest holding your nose until you get used to it. Next time you encounter a style or formatting question, please start at Wikipedia:MOS rather than Fowler's or Google. You will find that editors have already had the argument, hundreds of times, and guidance has been drawn up so we can get on with more important things. Regulov (talk) 10:43, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

MOS:'S suggests consulting the article Apostrophe. There I read: "Similar examples of notable names ending in an s that are often given a possessive apostrophe with no additional s include Dickens and Williams." Rwood128 (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Regulov Another practice in Wikipedia is to follow the style that previous editors agreed to use, before stomping in with minor rules. Changing one apostrophe at a time is annoying, by the way. You see above that Wikipedia style allows for the apostrophe alone for a possessive on a name ending in s, and their example is Mr Dickens. I hope that ends this crusade of yours in articles about novels by Charles Dickens. - - Prairieplant (talk) 03:44, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

You do not understand how this works. The article Apostrophe is an encyclopedic treatment of the apostrophe. It has no bearing on Wikipedia's house style, except in the most trivial way. It is not relevant to our discussion here, any more than are Fowler's or the OED. If you wish to change the Wikipedia house style, you are welcome to try, over at Wikipedia talk:MOS. It would be appropriate to cite style guides and evidence of prevailing usage and so on in your effort to change the MOS.

I am not on a crusade. I am simply "gnoming" articles into compliance with our house style. My edits are going to stand, in the end. It is only a question of how long and how painful the process will be, and that is up to you. Regulov (talk) 16:09, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

MOS:'S, under "possessives", advises "For thorough treatment of the English possessive, see Apostrophe". Rwood128 (talk) 19:39, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I am aware of that. As I explained above, that does not matter for our purposes. That article lies outside the MOS, and is not part of it. Editors are bound by the text of the MOS, not by the text of the encyclopedia. I assure you, it is no accident that the text of MOS:'S itself is unequivocal; that is the product of a long process of consensus-building, just as are sections of the MOS which give editors more latitude. It says what it says. If it intended to say otherwise, it would do so. The editors who wrote it are certainly aware of the more complicated terrain described at Apostrophe, as the direction "For thorough treatment" acknowledges. Nevertheless, the house style—while arguably arbitrary—is considerably simpler. This is not unusual. Wikipedia is a large publication, with many contributors, and does not accommodate everyone's preferences. Newspapers, for instance, likewise reduce rather than reflect the grammatical chaos of the organic language, by imposing a house style. Regulov (talk) 07:22, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Prairieplant writes, at my talk page:

Nor can you do whatever you want. British style REALLY does not use the full stop, their name for the period, the same way Americans use them. Read some British publications and notice the differences. You are now edit-warring, in my view. The editors who work on articles about novels by Dickens work hard at them, and work out differences on substance and style. You are not listening. Please do listen and get educated. None of us are new to Wikipedia, nor new to British style. - - Prairieplant

We will not be moving the discussion to my talk page.

You are simply wrong on the merits. I am not doing whatever I want; I am adhering to the MOS. "British style" is not at issue here. I have read several British publications, thank you very much. I have listened to you, and I have yet to hear a good argument. I am reasonably educated. You may not be new to Wikipedia, but it looks to me like you have not really engaged before with this side of the project.

You use "British style" as if it were a kind of get-out-of-jail-free card. I note that you presume I am not familiar with British English; you presume I am an (ignorant, bullying) American. Why? There are American editors here who do precisely the inverse: they immediately imagine I am an (overweening, supercilious) Englishman, and raise their national variety of English like an aegis.

Well, so I accuse you of treating "British style" as a license to do what you like, and you perceive me as charging around doing what I like. The difference, however, is manifest: I am bringing the text into line with the project's house style, and you are resisting that amendment. What I do or do not like is immaterial; you might with some justice say that I have simply decided to "like" what the MOS calls for, so as to make enforcing it easier on my personal sensibilities. I recommend you do the same.

It is true that the MOS permits dropping the period from Mr., Dr., &c. on grounds of national variety of English (MOS:POINTS). But that is not at issue, is it? I have left those alone. What you are objecting to is my adding the periods to "F. R. Leavis", &c. In biographical names, the standard is much stricter (MOS:INITS). Is there anything else? Or are we clear yet? Regulov (talk) 07:22, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

As far as I can see there is no preferred British or American style (see Purdue Oline Writing Labl), though the WP house style seems to be "s's", and this – and a period after initials – is used by the University of Wales Press, the London Review of Books, and other British sources that I checked, Prairieplant. To be clear, I write "J. C. Powys's novels". The only WP source that I can find that provides guidance is Apostrophe. I am unable to find any other WP source, Regulov. Rwood128 (talk) 15:54, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand you. What do you mean by "any other WP source"? I don't have to provide a source. Is that what you mean? MOS:'S (and MOS:INITS) is the (sufficient) authority for the edits. The MOS is a set of guidelines, not a set of articles. MOS:'S is not citing Apostrophe; is that what you mean? I'm sorry, but I have to insist: the fact that the University of Wales Press agrees on this point with WP is no more than trivia. It is not relevant. I have explained what the WP style is; there is really nothing to discuss, at any rate not here. Of course it is in principle possible to amend the MOS in some way that would change the way "Dickens's" is handled on this page, but that process should probably take place over at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, and until such time as the MOS is changed, the page will have to continue to read, "Dickens's". Am I anywhere close to what you're talking about? Regulov (talk) 19:34, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

This is confusing. I followed your advice Regulov and went to MOS:'S, which led me on this path →Manual of Style#Possessives Possessives→For thorough treatment of the English possessive, see Apostrophe→Apostrophe#Singular nouns ending withan s or z sound.

As you dismissed the use of the Apostrophe article, I naturally presumed that there was another, better source that you were referring to. I fully agree with what you say about both matters, but doesn't Prairieplant deserve a clearer answer from you? Can you quote, and fully document, here, your MOS source, if it differs from what I have described above? By the way I provided sources for current British and American usage for Prairieplant's benefit.Rwood128 (talk) 20:41, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I will try again. The MOS is the law. Full stop. At Wikipedia, the possessive is spelled as described at MOS:POSS. The end. The article Apostrophe is, for our purposes, irrelevant. The MOS is not an article. The usual Wikipedia "cite your sources" business does not apply to the dispute we are having here. This is a style dispute, not a content dispute. Does that help? Regulov (talk) 14:20, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to be so dumb (lazy). I was confused by the phrase "for thorough treatment" at the beginning of the section, which clearly recommends the Apostrophe article, despite what you say. I didn't realize that there was the following discussion below:

Singular nouns

For the possessive of singular nouns, including proper names and words ending in s, add 's (my daughter's achievement, my niece's wedding, Cortez's men, the boss's office, Illinois's largest employer, Descartes's philosophy, Verreaux's eagle). Exception: abstract nouns ending with an /s/ sound, when followed by sake (for goodness' sake, for his conscience' sake). If a name ending in s or z would be difficult to pronounce with 's added (Jesus's teachings), consider rewording (the teachings of Jesus).

Well, this is a kind of progress. If you hadn't read that far, I don't know what we've been talking about. This is the house style I have been hammering on about. This is the content of the section "Possessives", and it is what I have been trying to get you to read every time I've linked MOS:POSS / MOS:'S. Again, I am not confident you understand the distinction I am trying to draw between sections of the MOS, like MOS:APOSTROPHE, and Wikipedia articles, like Apostrophe. The MOS links out to Apostrophe strictly for further reading. All we need to settle this "Dickens's" business, however, is at MOS:POSS. Anyway, if we're through here, I'm satisfied. No hard feelings. Regulov (talk) 20:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Regulov Wikipedia has no laws. It has guidelines, and discussions among editors. MOS is not a law by any definition of a law. I never wasted so much time on full stops and the proper form of the possessive, and had so many insults thrown at me by another editor. I hope you are satisfied now and stop with these tedious revisions. -- Prairieplant (talk) 16:43, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

What insults? Show me one. I have been extremely patient. The revisions will stand. I agree, however, that there has been a certain amount of time wasted. Regulov (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Regulov Your form of communication is insulting, as you accept no views but your own. On 10 February, above, you were linked to an article recommended by MOS and totally ignored what it said, gave no indication that you read it or saw its potential to end this dispute. You interfere with the main editors of the article and the styles they settled on. And of course, you must have the last word, and that word is not, that you are satisfied to have your way.

If you think you are patient, well, I am not sure who would see that in you. I would not use that word. Way too persistent on small points of punctuation style, and unwilling to accept the views of others is what you showed in these interactions. I hope you are more polite and low key with others. -- Prairieplant (talk) 04:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

You say I have thrown "so many insults" at you; when pressed, you cannot cite one. No, the insult, apparently, is that I do not "accept" your view. Well, I do not accept it. Your way of ending the dispute doesn't work. That's why we have a rule. I keep pointing you to the rule, and you keep saying, but other publications have a different rule, and I choose to be governed by their rule. Do you see the problem?

"Way too persistent on small points of punctuation style"—does this describe me, or you? You are every bit as persistent as I am; if I shouldn't care about small points, why should you? If you think it doesn't matter, why not just accept the house style? What you don't understand is that over the years, the sovereignty of "the main editors of the article", their power to determine for themselves how they want to organize things and spell things and so on, has been eroded. It isn't up to you; or, anyway, if you want your say on the issue, you can have it at Talk:MOS, but not here. Wikipedia is maturing. This page isn't your private fiefdom, and the style and formatting of the whole project have come a long way from the dog's breakfast days of a decade ago. I realize you don't bother about the MOS, so you feel like you're getting blindsided, but a lot of work has gone into it, and a lot of work has gone into gnoming articles into line with it. Every now and then some editor asserts ownership of a page and makes a stink because they don't like the MOS way and they don't understand that it doesn't matter what they like. It always ends the same way, because the whole point of having a rule is so that we can settle disputes.

As for my tone, a lot of it is in your head. Again, where have I been impolite to you? Quote me. Isn't it just possible you're inferring more than the text of my responses will support? Forgive me, but I feel like when you say I should be "more polite and low key" what you really mean is I should "let Prairieplant have their way." Try reading me in a milder tone of voice; you shouldn't be insulted just because I dare to have a different opinion.

Let's review: my position is summed up at MOS:INITS and MOS:'S. I am editing all the Dickens-related pages to bring them into line with these and a handful of other fairly minor sections of the MOS. You don't think the MOS has any force here, because the pages are written in British English, and you point to examples of other publications which handle possessives and initials differently. I am aware both that usage varies widely among users of English and that there are broad areas of consensus distinguishing national varieties of English; I am further aware of Wikipedia's policy with respect to these national varieties. I assert that the MOS is in force on this page. There is no exception for "British style"; nor should there be. Crucially, it doesn't matter what they do at the Guardian. If you drive on the left side of the road in Minneapolis, you can't tell the cops it's okay because they drive on the left in Kyoto. They do indeed drive on the left in Kyoto—well spotted! But it doesn't matter, because you are in Minneapolis. "But what about Japanese diplomats? Can they drive on the left?" I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. I invite counter-argument. Regulov (talk) 14:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

MOS follows British style for initials and apostrophes, as I have noted previously. I found a Guardian article, Prairieplant, when I googled "Yeats' or Yeats's". They used the latter! Rwood128 (talk) 15:44, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Apostrophe

Prairieplant, when I recently mentioned the "s'"s controversy to a retired, Canadian professor of English, she emphatically stated that "Dickens'" is wrong, and the The New Yorker and other American journals that she reads use "s's". I have just consulted two books published by American publishers and one American journal and they confirm this.Rwood128 (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

So, Canadian and American styles are settled. - - Prairieplant (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Charles Dickens (C.D). David Copperfield (D.C) Inversion of characters

Dear All, I believe the entire life of David Copperfiled was the life of Charles Dickens itself, changing Charles Dickens(CD) to David Copperfield (DC). Thanks. Wrsdes (talk) 11:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

New images added and reverted

I have again deleted the images recently added by User:Richardgrayson3451 to David Copperfield and Great Expectations:

• The images were uploaded to Wikimedia Commons by User:Richardgrayson3451, and the source is shown as own work. To then add them to articles which they have been editing appears to be self-promotion and a conflict of interest.

• User:Richardgrayson3451 was requested on their talk page by User:Rwood128 to identify the source of these images, and has not responded. If the images are not their own work then, without knowing their origin, it must be assumed that they do not have permissions and should not be in WP.

Per WP:COIADVICE, if the addition of an image is challenged by another editor, it is controversial. Editors should rely on talk pages when images may be controversial or promotional. User:Richardgrayson3451, if you wish to restore these images, I suggest you make proposals to do so on the respective articles' talk pages so other editors can consider if these images actually improve the articles. Masato.harada (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

the following image is mine and made by me from ai

it is not stolen neither is it plagiarized. Richardgrayson3451 (talk) 19:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

So this is a sketch made by you with the aid of AI? I'm puzzled. Is an editor permitted display their own original art here anymore than original text? Rwood128 (talk) 19:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

i do not see a problem with it as long as it is wrong? 

i did not offend anyone neither did it cause a conflict rather an accurate impression of a character. 

what use is it if we don't use the resources around us? Richardgrayson3451 (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

What you are doing is illustrating an article with your own original work – what does using 'the resources around us' mean? This doesn't seem to be true to the spirit of Wikipedia, especially as lots of good images already exist that are more relevant. Isn't adding original sketches just like adding original research? Rwood128 (talk) 02:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

as long as it did not offend anyone im perfectly sure it is fine.

we dont have dicken's current generation to find out the truth but certainly and accurate potrayal with exact textx from the original are nice and speed up process rather that finding and searching and then accused of stealing the work.

also be it AI it is my work and basically i made that image.

AI as per the law has not copyright so the image is basically considered as an artist would consider theirs. Richardgrayson3451 (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

You are the one operating the computer that uses AI. Without you there would be no image. Won't it be wonderful when AI takes over Wikipedia and we can do more interesting and valuable lives? What is the source of the image created by AI? A rough sketch by you? A scanned image? What? Rwood128 (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)